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Post by willdurant on Dec 17, 2014 12:28:16 GMT -5
I was fortunate enough to watch the Seton Hall game from the Columbia Bank Suite along with three members of the '68 team. I mention the Suite because if afforded a nice elevation from which to watch the offenses operate. Forget that fact that Seton Hall had better athletes; they just play better basketball. Every pass has a purpose. Every player when he receives the ball knows what he is going to do with the ball; knows where the next pass is going. They know where who wants to shoot from, and who is going to shoot from where, and therefore they can anticipate rebounds. St Peter's always seems clueless on offense. In fact, one of the members of the '68 team turned to me during the second half and said of his Alma Mater, "I get the feeling this team is trying not to score." There's a mouthful of wisdom there. Anyway this brings me to Hestor. Hestor has 16 threes in 108 minutes. Gaskins has 14 in 245 minutes and Dominique 18 in 329. And you're telling me you can't find him any shots against Seton Hall? Yeah, he's a pure shooter; some days he's going to be hot and somedays not. But as any gambler knows, if you don't make a bet you'll never know if it's your luck day or not. And as we've seen BU, and Norfolk State, he has the capacity to electrify and thereby tighten up an offense. What he lacks in foot speed he makes up with (and this may be testimony to his character) NBA range and quickness of release. When he starts catching and shooting and draining threes his teammates start catching and shooting and draining threes (all offense, both good and bad, is contagious.) And all the wasted effort meandering around the perimeter seems to disappear. However, that might not be a good thing for a team trying not to score (or put it this way: trying not to let the other team have too many chances to score.) But Hestor ain't no Jester. Along with Washington and Dominique, and with a bit of a contribution from Gaskins and Patterson, St Peter's, unleashing Wyche's ability to find the open man, should be raining threes down on the opposition. Peacock Throne Offense, Baby. Rain of Terror. You know, Hestor last year had 84 threes for a team that averaged 96 points a game on their way to the Junior College Div 1 Final Four. I mean, obviously he's an up-tempo shooter. Why recruit, an up-tempo shooter if you're not going to let him shoot?. On another occasion I asked another member of the '68 team how many points he thinks Kiki Clark would have scored playing in the Prevent-Offense for Dunne. And his answer was simply: "Not many." By which I took it he meant 15 or 16 a game. Here I disagree with loyal. I would rather lose 80-78 than win 15-13, or 45-43. There is such a thing as a Pyrrhic Victory. My experience at St. Peter's has been, you take the air out of the ball and you take the air out of the program. Or a Harry Laurie said, (I don't think he would mind me attributing this quote to him; he was talking about the large screen TVs in the arena) "It's all about the entertainment." This team could be very entertaining. Or not. Though they should win a fair share of game in the MAAC either way. And that concludes my commentary for the 2014-2015 season.
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Post by willdurant on Dec 17, 2014 13:15:47 GMT -5
Slight correction to my post: Gaskins has 14 threes in 280 minutes; Marvin 18 in 379. And Washington has 6 in 90 minutes. Hester has 16 in 105 minutes.
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Post by junctionkid on Dec 17, 2014 13:35:02 GMT -5
willdurant , excellent post summing up the kind of hoops that we have seen in Dunne's tenure . This is in no way saying that JD is anything but a good guy who has and is doing many good things for our basketball program . It is not to say that he doesn't know a lot more about hoops than all of us posters . But it is to say that his coaching to date has a serious flaw in it that is terribly frustrating for Peacock fans . It was frustrating with the Wes , Ryan , Nick and Jeron teams . But it is even more frustrating with this team that is at the least deeper in talent than that team . This team just has too much talent to diminish it by playing 'not to lose basketball' . It has too much talent to play "let's stay with this team and maybe steal the game at the end" basketball . As you implied , let's recognize that this squad is talented enough to play with virtually any team on our schedule while , as Loyal and new fan have posted , we are playing more aggressive hoops . Maybe , it is a gamble . But , how don't you gamble that Travis' shooting will open up the court for us . This is not the choice between Travis playing starter kind of minutes and zero minutes ( as has happened in three games already ). It is the choice between him playing at least 15 minutes and zero minutes . That is totally possible without impacting any other players minutes that significantly . That's what a coach is supposed to do .
Is this a gamble ? I guess it is but only as much as it would be to let Trevis play more aggressively at the point . As Loyal and newfan have also perceptively said or implied , this is commented upon just by watching this team's style of play over JDs tenure . I hope that he is coach for a long time . But I also hope that he improves even more , and a lot more , in this particular deficiency in his overall coaching abilities . As JD himself said in answer to a question before the season , we have more talent and shooting available to us this year but " as always we will hang our hats on defense " . We can still play good defense , maybe even better defense , if we maximize the talents on this team offensively both involving changes in players' minutes and in less micro managing on offense . Gamble , yes . Worth taking , definitely . You only get a point with Trevis' potential every so often . Limiting the other teams' chances offensively may be the way you have to go when you have a big talent deficiency . This team does not have that problem . A coach can do a lot of micromanaging in practices . Should never do it in a game . Trust your players . The more open style of offense makes the game better for recruiting , easier for shooters ( would you shoot more confidently if you knew your team was going to have 60 or 90 opportunities in a game ? ) and more fun for the players and fans .
I would like to correct a comment that I made in this post that was wrong headed . The statement was " this team ( the current addition of the Peacocks ) that is at the least deeper in talent than that team ( the Wes , Ryan , Nick and Jeron squad ) " . While there is a bit of accuracy to it , that is a whole lot less than what is incorrect and quite stupid about it . Its stupidity is my failure to remember at the moment of posting that , in my opinion , Wes and Ryan were two of the greatest Peacocks ever to put on the Blue and White combined with totally forgetting at that moment that that team had the talent of -in addition the four players already mentioned - of Darius , Steve , Yvon and and the unfortunately under utilized Brandon . I still think that this squad may have more weapons in its arsenal than that squad , but they have a whole lot left to do this season to make the comment appear a little less ignorant .
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Seton Hall
Dec 17, 2014 15:15:24 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by loyal on Dec 17, 2014 15:15:24 GMT -5
The rub is this club appears to have the firepower NOT to have to depend only on defensive stops to achieve victory.
Most of our clubs during JD's tenure had to play in the 50's-60's to have a chance. This club does not, but so far looks exactly the same offensively.
Fair to good coaches do what they do. Good to great coaches can adapt to maximize the talents of a given roster.
I hope the old saying, "when the only tool in your box is a hammer, everything looks like a nail" does not apply to us. Again, to be fair, Coach is just getting Desi back.
Let's see how the offense comes together as the season rolls on.
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Post by oldtimer1 on Dec 17, 2014 15:44:04 GMT -5
Good that everyone has their opinions, that's what message Boards are all about. Coaches have dozens of decisions to make before game and during. That's why I posted pre-season that there will be plenty of second guessing. Well it's here! Check out the other Boards, plenty throwing their coaches under the bus. Not so with this board...we're pretty good with a lot of objective criticism. Yet I have a different opinion on a lot which has been posted above, so I'll just state my opinion.
1) Regarding Hester, I totally agree that he should be given more minutes to confirm what he can or cannot do. I've seen him play pre-season, practice and in games. IMO he definitely brings something to the table. However, we have not seen him enough to draw permanent conclusions. IMO too many of us are in love with his early season stats...from a relatively small sample. For myself, he has worked his way up the depth chart. However, even with that I much rather have Tyler Gaskins on the court...does many, many more things for the team. I hope Hester gets playing time, maybe I'll be wrong on what he can contribute over time. Most think that he is the next coming. I see him as a valuable role player.
2) I keep saying that I like Trevis Wyche and I do. But are we getting to the point that his decent but not exceptional play this year is the fault of the Coach or other players. It's the Coach who is now perceived to be holding him back? How ridiculous. Poster after poster ( with one or two exceptions) have commented on previous threads that they we disappointed in the fact that Trevis has not stepped up his game all year. Go back and read those posts. Shoots just as bad as ever, and whose only offensive threat comes from driving to the basket.That, we are now told from some third part hearsay is JD's fault...total bs. Trevis is a very good player for us, and I think that he is playing just as well as last year, but as some have posted not close to being ALL-MAAC. Let's just be realistic when talking about him.
3) This team, even with Marvin, does not have the talent of our Championship Team...Nick,Wes, Ryan, Jeron, Darius and so on down the line. We have talent but not talent like that UNLESS several of our players bring their game to that next level. Tyler and possibly Hester and Elias have the potential to do that but right now IMO we have one great player (Marvin), two pretty good players (Desi and Trevis) and several players showing FLASHES of potential ( Tyler, Elias, Q, Boone and Hester ) but none of the latter is, as of yet a foregone conclusion. So I rate us more in the potential area than an extremely talented team.
So this is my bottom line:
1) Maybe the criticism of JD is justifed, don't know. Yet, how was our offense against Rutgers, BU and Princeton? Sometimes it's the Coach but sometimes it's all about player execution....shared criticism and responsibility.
2) Stop making excuses for Trevis. He's not playing poorly! He is what he is, a very good player. If he has not taken, as of yet that next step forward, it's not the coach. Would have liked to see him develop a jump shot this Summer....never did. Whose to blame?
3) Hester does deserve more of an opportunity. What he will do with that, I have no idea. Same with Boone. However, as of right now I want Desi and Gaskins to get the bulk of the playing time. Mainly I want Q to get completely healthy. Really don't know how good he is.Could be We need to find out.
4) There will always be second guessing...why did you play this guy and not that guy etc? Part of the job. Junctionkid is right, JD knows far more about basketball than we do...or do we think differently?
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Post by oldtimer1 on Dec 17, 2014 15:58:34 GMT -5
PS Does anyone remember Cindy's post on our first away game? In so many words he said that the entire staff was upset with player after player passing up open shots? Continued on for a few games. Several of us posted about this. Atleast what I see now is not the double clutching that went on earlier in the season. We did not have the firepower then...just really Marvin. Now that Desi is back, Tyler is looking pretty good and Hester and Boone are wild cards., let's see what happens.
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Seton Hall
Dec 17, 2014 16:32:16 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by newfan on Dec 17, 2014 16:32:16 GMT -5
Bottom line, a few posters see that maybe a change to the system might be the answer. Oldtimer I know you like JD, we all do but another type of offense may be needed, this one doesn't seem to be it. I'll give a type of example the Knicks,Phil Jackson wants triangle offense, listen to their commentators, the basketball insider shows, they have tendency to say, this triangle is not going well, Phil says all his teams could execute it, but the Knicks don't seem to do well with it, hence their record. Just saying change is sometimes necessary. And if players aren't getting better, or improving, who is supposed to see the issue and help correct it. If the shot is off, if no one shows or tells the player what's wrong,like arm needs to be extended, or more lift on jumper, then works with player to get it better, then the shot doesn't get better. Who is supposed to help with rebounding if timing is off. I have heard these guys work on FT's, shooting gun, etc on their own time. But don't think that if players don't improve or jump next hurdle it's all their fault. Sometime you can take the same player, put them on another team that has a different style and they thrive, then you wonder where was that when we had them, difference talent was there, just needed right environment. And I'm not speaking about Trevis, Marv, Q, Desi, etc. Speaking in general overall.
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Post by loyal on Dec 17, 2014 16:34:35 GMT -5
I don't know what I don't know about x's and o's.....but I see the issue being too much aimless dribbling on the perimeter, vs. double clutching on shots.
A very high percentage of possessions seem to "start" with 12 seconds or less on the clock.
That has been consistent for eight years, PG or no PG, talent or no talent.
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Post by oldtimer1 on Dec 17, 2014 18:02:21 GMT -5
newfan...in the spirit of friendly debate let me reply
1) The fact that I like JD has nothing to do with objective evaluation. Wish those who were so eager to comment and evaluate would take the time to attend one of our practices. I know for a fact several of us have and each one came away totally impressed. I think it was '68 fan (not sure) who posted extensively on how impressed he was with the practice. Drills and all.
2) With regard to your comment about getting additional help from the coaching staff. First, drills are done every single practice on all of the things you mentioned. If you are not there why would you comment that it might not be taking place? It is! I also disagree that the major burden, especially over the Summer falls with the Staff...it doesn't. To use my Program as an example we have an end of Season meeting to discuss what each player needs to do to work on his game over the Summer. Basketball is luckier since NCAA rules allows the team to have small practice/drill sessions following the end of the season and before practice starts in the Fall. The basketball team utilizes each and every one of those regulated sessions. So I guess it sort of irritates me ( not necessarily at you) that those who criticize have no idea of NCAA regulations. Our staff is doing everything permissable, working their ass off, out of Season. To suggest that they aren't doing enough is ridiculous and insulting to their hard work.
And, by the way, JD knows who is giving 100% and who is not not. He was upset with Q's injury because he felt that Q put out a tremendous effort all Summer long only to get injured. To paraphrase JD, Q put out the best effort of anyone on the team. I will also tell you about another player, name not to be mentioned that JD had a sitdown with because he wasn't happy with the effort. So what is written above is only guess work and conjecture with knowing all the facts.
3) A players ultimate improvement does rest with that player. True in all or any sport
4) Where you are correct IMO is in Season...and it's budgetary issues. JD has the smallest staff of assIstant basketball coaches of almost anywhere. This probably hampers some other MAAC schools as well. If the school and the AD is to support our basketball program, give them the resources. Maybe we can then hire an offensive assistant as many of us would like. The Program is operating under very difficult circumstances.
5) Some may consider me an insider, Not really, only to the extent that I'm a Coach in the Department. I have very infrequent conversations with JD on the Team. It's not my business. When I go to a practice, as any of our posters can, I shake hands with JD, pass a few pleasantries and just sit and observe.
6) In terms of talent, many of us have no idea how our "talent" stacks up against other MAAC teams. Everyone thinks that their Team has talent also. We are not as delusional as most other boards but we talk of our team in terms of talent. I agree that we have "potentially" talented players but for the most part we have had, to date, Marvin and maybe Trevis. Now that Desi is back maybe 3 pretty consistently talented guys. All the rest are potential talent. My hope is that as the Season progresses some of that Talent comes forth.
7) Finally, drives me crazy when I hear about offensive schemes. There are only so many plays in college basketball and most teams use the same plays. Plays, screens, pick and rolls are good but it often comes down to either execution or a talented player making an individual move. In the Seton Hall game our defense was excellent. Didn't see many Seton Hall "plays" develop but I did see a lot of individual moves creating opportunities.
If I had one criticism of our offense it's that we have NO inside game. Perhaps it's because Q is injured but I also have unresolved question about how much of an interior scorer Q is. Excellent defender and rebounder but inside game? Against Norfork State, Niagara and Canisius each had interior scorers much better than what we offered. And for those who say that Marvin should go inside, I'm quite confortable with him on the outside and going inside only out of necessity. He's not a center and we need one badly...Q, get healthy!
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Seton Hall
Dec 17, 2014 18:20:44 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by newfan on Dec 17, 2014 18:20:44 GMT -5
Loyal, I will agree that sometimes there is dribbling, not just from main PG, but backup, at times whoever. One thing that can attribute to the dribbling is when our guards have to keep their dribble because there is standing around, more watching than moving. Also if play called and players not sure where to go, as we have seen coach and other players have to give direction, can slow or render useless an offensive set. Overall we all have our thoughts and as Oldtimer stated, we keep it tasteful , objective which shows we all care alot about our team. They all have their strengths and wesknesses, all of them. Let's now hope the players breakout, and start to be what we know they can, I for one believe.
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Post by oldtimer1 on Dec 17, 2014 19:04:14 GMT -5
Well newfan...we finally agree! Before you began posting the observation that some player(s) stand around was posted frequently. Since I try to be positive I'll not to name names. But it's a valid point.
Next home game or anyone you are at come over and say hello. Think you know where a few of us sit. Be happy to meet you.
Each of us has our opinions but I'll restate my #1 concern. We have no inside game (as of yet), therefore we are a perimeter shooting team subject to how we shoot on any given night. Not going to win us any Championships. The ball has to go inside for a score or then kicked out to the open man. Marvin can do that a little but he's not a center and, last year, he held onto the ball too long. The know it all's will say that the coaches have to work on that. Truth is, to those who know, the Staff has been working on that all preseason and in practices. Marvin tries, the Staff tries but sometimes he falls into those old bad habits. Who to blame?
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Seton Hall
Dec 17, 2014 20:18:39 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by newfan on Dec 17, 2014 20:18:39 GMT -5
Well Oldtimer, I don't know, us agreeing could be dangerous (smile) only kidding. I have changing work hours so I'll make the games I can, hope to make FDU, but 4pm is a push. Think team will get it together, we have already seen, RU game, what they can do. If they can come out every game like that (and remember we got it done from many scoring sources and solid D) we will be a hard match up for many. Here's to SPU
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Post by loyal on Dec 18, 2014 8:28:19 GMT -5
Group hug! :-)
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Seton Hall
Dec 21, 2014 18:40:05 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by newfan on Dec 21, 2014 18:40:05 GMT -5
Watching SHU vs Georgia also saw game vs Wichita State, a little fun here, everyone knows it's hard to win at Prudential, they get the benefit of the calls or no calls, perhaps if they got the calls they deserved, they or Willard would not look so amazed at the calls they get when away from home, " Yes, SHU , that is a foul, there is a call for that". Maybe if they get the calls at home, they might get it right away from home, another way the refs could help (smile) To all the Peacock fans and posters, HAVE A VERY HAPPY HOLIDAY TO ALL, God Bless
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Post by junctionkid on Dec 22, 2014 18:26:52 GMT -5
Here's to a home win against FDU ; anxious to see Rodney Hawkins play . Let me wish all Peacock players , staff ,fans and posters a happy , healthy and not too hectic Christmas Eve and Christmas Day .
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