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Seton Hall
Dec 14, 2014 21:03:09 GMT -5
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Post by newfan on Dec 14, 2014 21:03:09 GMT -5
Ok, like I always say I am a guard play person, I like the position. There is a saying "a guard is only as good as the players he gets the ball to" , so Trevis is a "pure point", no one can say he doesn't get the ball to the scorers, the shooters, if they don't finish, he is at fault? Who has broken the press for us, at times wit Tyler help. Someone said Mel basically same level as Trevis, today one play on inbounds, Trevis doubled, fouled, fought and got out of doubleteam and down court, same scenario Mel, turnover, more than once on press. If Mel is same level, maybe Trevis should come off bench. Can Trevis be recruited over, sure anyone can. If we brought in a great point right now, would there be a difference, no because same rings true, the point gets the ball to the scorers, if they don't score, it's not because the point didn't do his job. A pure point runs the point, not necessarily needed to score, a combo does the point and score. Trevis is a Pure. If he couldn't play we lose a vital part. Teams play us different when he's not on court. I saw him in HS was aggressive, same eagle eye, maybe team needs to do more moving, less standing around forcing guards to keep dribble, maybe scorers need to try to score when they get ball instead of passing it back out. Maybe new system. The answer, who knows. Imo Q needs time to heal, hope he doesn't make worse by continuing to play.
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Seton Hall
Dec 14, 2014 21:58:26 GMT -5
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Post by newfan on Dec 14, 2014 21:58:26 GMT -5
Lastly, some playing systems work for one type player and that player improves and grows, and same system can hinder another players best skills and retard his growth. You have offenses like running games, Princeton type, motion, etc. Many styles coaches use, sometimes what worked one year needs changing the next, your players may be in need of change, maybe change to reflect their present talents, not the past. Have to know players strengths and utilize them.
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Post by oldtimer1 on Dec 14, 2014 23:21:15 GMT -5
At least the last several posts were rational discussions. We can all have an opinion and I'll state mine below but when we get into unknowable psycholigical comments about our coach it bothers me as it does many of us. That's over and said, now let's move on.
1) I agree with spcfan that I would have liked to see Hester get some minutes. Doubt if JD has anything against him because, if you remember, JD started him one game just before Desi came back. I can understand those who said that he should have gotten some additional minutes based on his earlier season performances. No problem here and I agree that he could have been given minutes over Chazz. On the other hand, let me say this. I do not see Hester, yet, as a guy who can make his own shot or put the ball on the floor and drive to the basket like Tyler. Nor do I think that he is a good ballhandler or passer. I say that with a very big question mark because it's way too early too make any final judgements. I want to see more of him. Figgy, who attends almost every game, alluded to this in a previous thread when he talked about Hester's "skill set". When figgy posted that I understood exactly what he was talking about. No Peacock poster wants to talk negatively about our players but we do need to be realistic. Regarding Hester, it's way too early to tell. He's still on a learning curve and his 3 point potential is worthy of more play.
2) Disagree with newfan. No knock on Trevis but I see Sina as the better player. The point guard starter on a 9-1 pretty good Seton Hall team. Deadly shooter and did throw some nice passes today. Would start over Trevis if both played on the same team. My opinion. And why the knock on Jamel? Trevis is the more valuable player for us but there have been games this year where Jamel has brought more to the table. Good one two punch. No player on this level doesn't have pluses and minuses. Trevis pluses are his ball handling, court vision and his ability (when he chooses to) to drive to the basket, score and/or draw the foul. Love that about him. Also he is a pretty good rebounder for his size. On the negative side is, of course, his shooting. Although an "oldtimer" I don't believe in this "pure" point guard stuff. Point guards in todays basketball need to be an offensive threat. That why Sina is better. Trevis is good but all of us want to see him ( he's still a young Sophomore) move his game to the next level. We want him to be an All-MAAC player which, at this point, he is not.
3) Great for Elias. I know him pretty well as he roomed freshman year with one of my golfers. Think he suffers from my other favorite guy from last year, Chris Burke, who really didn't know how good he could be. Not familiar with the center position Elis did make one beautiful left handed lay in today. Elias...just shoot the ball when open. You can really help us by shooting.
4) Regarding Q, we are all giving him the benefit of the doubt referring to his pre-season injury. There is no question that if the doctors, the best in NYC, didn't think he could play he would not have been cleared. No doubt if he doesn't improve there are some who would say that he should have been medical redshirted, if that was possible. I would disagree. With Dominique, Desi and Tyler graduating this would have to have been our best year. This is the year we need Q, not next. Much like Wesley in our Championship Season. Where would we have been without Wes?
Bottom line I saw some very good things today. Tyler looks better and better every game. Trevis handled pressure very well. Elias showed us that he's not just a body on the court but a contributor who will help in MAAC Conference play. Desi looked great against Princeton and brings that will to win. Marvin, agree with junctionkid, in that I don't worry about him....just a special player who will draw a lot of attention. But when he's "on", almost unstoppable
Keep in mind that Hawkins will be on a learning curve as is Boone. What will happen to Simeon Davis is the open question. Only so many minutes to distribute.
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Post by spc91 on Dec 15, 2014 8:44:42 GMT -5
All great comments and spot on. I do have to disagree with oldtimer. Jamel hurt us against the press yesterday. That is the fundamental weakness in his game. He needs to work on that if he is to be effective once the MAAC season kicks into high gear.
Overall, the team played better than I expected against a really good SHU, especially in the 2nd half. We were even with SHU. Still need to find that extra shooter as SHU keyed on Desi and Marvin. On to the next one...
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Post by oldtimer1 on Dec 15, 2014 10:09:06 GMT -5
spc91...with respect, I think you misintrepreted what I was trying to say. There is no doubt that any of us would rather have Trevis handle against the press but to say that this is a fundamental weakness in Jamel's game, I do not agree. Yesterday both Trevis and Jamel had 2 turnovers each although Trevis played 28 minutes to Jamel's 18 minutes. On the Season, their turnover stats are almost identical even when taking into account minutes played. And as far as assist/turnover ratios they are almost identical 1.7 for Trevis and 1.5 for Jamel. Trevis, of course, despite the stats is the much, much better assist man.
So no, I do not see turnovers as a fundamental weakness in Jamel's game, Trevis is just better handling the ball. On the defensive side of the ball Jamel brings intensity and skill, Not that Trevis is poor defensive player but Jamel is the better defender.
If there is a fundamental weakness in either of their games it's shooting and being an offensive threat... but we all know that. Bottom line is that Jamel has given us some valuable minutes this year, almost single handily bringing us back in one of our home games a week or so ago. For me, and most of the others I know, Jamel is a very good back up to Trevis. I do not worry about his ball handling.
Hope we found that one extra shooter/scorer in Tyler. Too early to make final conclusions but he has been contributing very well.
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Seton Hall
Dec 15, 2014 14:06:34 GMT -5
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Post by newfan on Dec 15, 2014 14:06:34 GMT -5
Well we all have our opinions. Still odd in HS Trevis was kniwn for his passing, which he still does and getting to rim, strange he gets to rim once or twice then stops, has to be a reason, if he can beat his man, why not keep doing it. Ok let's move on from our guards. Team all getting better, one thing for all Marvin brings, his defense can also be lacking, yes he brings a lot, scoring, rebounding but in this game he did not even slow down Mobley, didn't get hands up to contest, nor deny him the ball, Mobley hurt us, Rolle for his few minutes did deny the ball to him. Marvin does have some struggles with athletic players, he has to deny or get his hands up. This team played better than most thought, I look forward to the next game. Hopefully they all get firing on all cylinders. One thing I would like to say, I post what my opinion is and it's great to see no player animosity, no maliciousness, most of the posters here are supporters and loyal fans who give not just the negative but the positive as well. I have seen some bad message boards out there
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Post by Peacock on Dec 15, 2014 14:14:55 GMT -5
Not sure what all the arguments are about. Game wasn't that bad, As a team we are flawed particularly in the front court. Despite the praises for Desport, he and Q both suffer from the one second delay syndrome as evidenced in Boones second drive to the basket. They are not instinctively quick. The real questions which are skirted here on this board for fear of exciting the puppy dog, is are we utilizing the talent of the team. There is what appears to be an unknown to the staff that offense wins ball games. Two players who have shown that they are not only offensively minded but can put their action where their thoughts are. Those are Hester and Boone. Now Hester has a little handle problem which accounts for the current benchings, yet is never given the opportunity to develop handle against real opposition. Not being put in the second half gives credence to that statement. If he is on the floor with Desi, there will be respect from the defense. So who cares who sits, they don't seem to be doing much anyway. The only two who deserve the floor time are Gaskins and Wyche. That respect will also take some pressure off of Marvin who actually has a worse handling problem when pressured than Hester. Someone mentioned motion and plays. Very evident the majority of plays are geared to Desi and Marvin. while there might be some for the others, newfan just might have a point. You can say anything about anybody in one particular game, but you have to look to the body of work to draw any decent conclusions and it appears most just want to work off one game at a time. We will win a fair amount of games this season because there is talent there. If we don't just blame it on the concrete.
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Post by oldtimer1 on Dec 15, 2014 18:42:45 GMT -5
newfan...good observation about Trevis. I too would like to see him drive more. He's very good at that. More difficult to drive in D1 basketball against the "trees" but Trevis has a unique driving move when he tucks the ball into his hip and moves slightly into the defender drawing the foul. Think he can do this all day long. Once in a while he can also kick it out to the open shooter, creating open shots.
Difficult to give Hester minutes with Desi back. Both Desi and Gaskins belong on the court. Hester could be used as a back up to either and possible substitution if either is not playing well. I would like to see Hester get the experience since he will be part of our future. Same for Boone But, right now, if you are going to play our two best, it's Desi and Gaskins with Hester, Boone and Chazz fighting for minutes. Something which obviously leaves the coach subject to second guessing. Right now our best lineup is Wyche, Desi, Gaskins, Marvin and Elias/Q. When we substitute and how often is not an easy decision.
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Post by figgyprez on Dec 15, 2014 20:02:21 GMT -5
OT It really didn't matter whose minutes were going to be cut to get Hester in- down 19 you just ave to roll the dice, even if Desi has to come off because you need a pg(Trev), some size (Marv and E who was doing well) and Gaskins who also was effective. That's different than the Princeton game where we played well and the game didn't suit Travis. Going forward one of JD's challenges is going to be finding spots in games to see if Hester is bringing it that night and ride him if he is and sit him if he's cold. Years ago SHu and PJ had akid from Cherry Hill- Nick Katsikis who was just like Hester and in every game, PJ found a way to give him a shot at going on a streak and when he did to ride it until it stopped and if it wasn't there he sat him. JD should go look at those tapes if he needs some ideas on how to use Hester, bu that that's what he's got to figure out.
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Post by oldtimer1 on Dec 15, 2014 21:39:44 GMT -5
Figgy, think Princeton was the better game to get Travis some time. Not as tough defensively as Seton Hall and did play some zone. Seton Hall played a very tough man to man defense and pressed us almost all game long. Tough combination in which to play Travis but...that said I still would have liked him to get the experience.
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Seton Hall
Dec 16, 2014 17:43:21 GMT -5
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Post by newfan on Dec 16, 2014 17:43:21 GMT -5
Oldtimer, figgy, Cindy, you guys bring lots of interesting pounts, Junction also. Just a hearsay, was talking to a friend of mine who came to the game with his 2 sons because he's a sports nut, he said SPU was more competitive than they get credit for. One thing he said to me was and I quote ," your pg, said to your coach, coach I can blow by him, and your coach told him run the play", he said I was sitting right there, heard it clear. I said which guard, he said white, the last name W kid. I said wow, we'll the coach has last say. If true and he has no stake in team, then that may explain why no continued drives. Drives that would score or draw defense for kickout. I know Desi drives, Marv too, maybe again offense is centered mostly for those 2 to score with Tyler and Chazz last options. Who knows. Just saying what he told me. Either way , he gave great praise to our team , thought blowout was coming the way SHU has been playing. Said we deserve more recognition we are better that most think. Nice to hear
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Post by oldtimer1 on Dec 16, 2014 22:19:48 GMT -5
newfan, like your posts also...a breath of fresh air. However, to your point about your friend. No way was he even remotely close enough to hear any conversation between Coach and players. Sitting directly behind the bench in comped Athletic Department seats were family and friends. I was back further.
Even if you were sitting in the very first row as was Desi's family and Elias' uncle you still could not overhear any concersations taking place on the bench. There was a barrier, a wide isle and then the first row. Overhearing was improbable if not impossible.
I know you meant well but this kind of unfounded hearsay becomes an open invitation to take it as gospel by those who want to. Now for first person knowledge, JD told me before the Season that he would like to see Trevis drive more ( used the word penetrate ) and either score, draw foul or kick out to the open man. Doubt if he's restrained.
Pretty sure Trevis has that green light when he sees an opening. Same with Gaskins, who, along with Desi, is our best penetrator.
Based on the last couple of games I have become more optimistic about the rest of the Season. JD, as figgy said, will have to figure some things out about where to allocate minutes...not an easy job and always subject to second guessing.
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Post by loyal on Dec 17, 2014 8:36:51 GMT -5
Guys, we're into the details about a symptom. The "big picture" diagnosis is clear to everyone who has watched SPU for the past eight years.
Like it or not, SPU plays very, very deliberately on offense. That has been the case since Day One of JD's tenure. This occurs without regard to the quality of offensive talent on the roster. Our poorest and best offensive squads all have seemed to settle into the same kind of ball.
Coach may very well be encouraging players to push it up the floor, or be more aggressive offensively. However, the end results have spoken for themselves since Coach arrived.
We can all debate about whether or not this is the best way for SPU to win. Bottom line, that's what the Coach thinks, so that's all she wrote. Few of us enjoy consistently watching games in the 50's-60's.....however, our offense is what it is.
Personally, if we win the MAAC Title Game 15-13, that is fine with me. Winning matters. One could argue we lose some recruits because the style of play in unappealing, but that is conjecture on my part.
The frustration I've shared with OT and Cindy is I can't shake a feeling THIS SPU club is the most offensively talented we've had in JD's tenure. I feel we should be playing much better offensively, since we have one of the best MAAC front liners (Marvin), plus a pretty good guard in Desi and a functional PG in Wyche. To me, offensively, this roster is underachieving. Of course, Desi just returned, so let's see if we can improve our scoring and offensive efficiency as the season progresses.
If this squad continues to play games in the 50's- low 60's, I personally will feel, net-net, this team will have underachieved on the offensive end.
Given our (relative) depth and offensive firepower, I suspect things may open up going forward. We'll see and here's hoping.
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Seton Hall
Dec 17, 2014 12:10:03 GMT -5
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Post by newfan on Dec 17, 2014 12:10:03 GMT -5
Well strange he would say that out blue but who knows. Loyal, when you say deliberate seems like a good definition. We do play controlled, managed like ball. Doesn't always hurt us, but definitely doesn't always help us, one could say depends on who we're playing. We do have offensive weapons, with different strengths, that IMO aren't always put in position to be maximixed. Offense plays seems to be geared to set up mainly 2 key players and anything else is by play breakdown or the defense being played on us breaks down. Maybe that's why we're so "deliberate" guys aren't sure should they or shouldn't they. If they are second guessing, then the powers that be have to make it known they can. Not knocking JD, we're not there to see what he is saying or not saying and Oldtimer, you say what you have been told, and I believe you but to watch games it seems message not getting across, has to be reason why and it can't be all on the players all the time
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Seton Hall
Dec 17, 2014 12:12:49 GMT -5
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Post by newfan on Dec 17, 2014 12:12:49 GMT -5
Maybe too cautious, maybe too much micromanaging. We have smart players, have to trust their instincts. Just wondering
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