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Post by Peacock on Jan 27, 2013 18:38:55 GMT -5
With the need to bring out the milk toast posters who love John, I would like to invite them on congratulating John on crossing the 30% w/l barrier in his 7th season as he has now attained a level below 30% wins/losses.
The need to anoint him as a quality coach shows the shallowness of the fan base. I see where the prime apologist claims it is a poor product to sell without even considering that the poor product is a result of John's tenure. Others just feel they have to praise him. The reason the program is poor is because nobody holds the staff responsible. Also send out your congratulations to Pat Elliot for giving him a five year contract that will keep him here for the next three years.
Hell, Hamburger says on the Iona post game interview how David Lawry was consider a D2 level player in his High School Days. And most think this group knows talent.
Will be most interested to read the Galt comment which should show his complete lack of knowledge of the game. Blind and Leckie sold the same product and Leckie didn't even work hard at it. One only needs to review the history of Dunne at SPC (U) to understand that he is severely lacking in skills in understanding what is needed and what you have to do to attain that need. His handling of players is also suspect despite the claim that players like him. But one must consider that players not at the school don't like him. I don't subscribe to the blind faith of jajk in thinking John is a good coach, I only point to a performance that would have a problem continuing in any level of college/Juco basketball. The only real reason to blame the school is that their support of such poor performance is as responsible.
I won't respond back as I have violated the Political Correctness of the cerebral and will wait until this great season has culminated.
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Post by loyal on Jan 28, 2013 13:48:51 GMT -5
As is often heard during SPU post game interviews, "It is what it is". A 30% win percentage over seven years simply cannot be framed in a positive light. I think objective fans and even JD's most loyal supporters and friends acknowledge that fact. Looking at the entire body of work, March 5th-7th of 2011 looks more and more like an outlier. Hard to refute that as well. Given all that, JD is here for the next three years. Whether the primary reason for the 30% win percentage is due primarily to an environment ensuring failure or this staffs particular inability to recruit/coach/motivate players will not change that fact. We had all, every one of us who care about SPU basketball, hope JD's 5/6/7 next recruits are markedly better than the recruits of the past six years....and that JD will be able to motivate them, coach them to improve and minimize the size of the "doghouse". A study of past performance indicates that is unlikely to happen, but I am hoping like heck it does.
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monty
Junior Member
Posts: 56
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Post by monty on Jan 28, 2013 16:03:32 GMT -5
I agree completely. maybe there are other factors, but every year it is the same thing. We march out a high school sized lineup, with a 3 or 4 guard attack,in a high school gym and a 6"6 Center. We cant recruit, and the posts on this site refer to a 6"6 player as a "big". 6'6" in NOt "big", and neither is 6"7. Every team we play has multiple players bigger than 6'8" who can play, why cant we lure any? We havent had a true point guard since jasper Walker, and we sing the praises of guards that cant pass, or protect the ball. Its embarrasing how far we've fallen, especially the last decade. JD seems like a good guy, and everyone lauds coaching ability, but other than 1 year, it isnt working. I would assume the frustration level would be higher. We are a year away from getting kicked around by Monmouth University
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Post by oldtimer1 on Jan 28, 2013 16:24:30 GMT -5
Loyal...just 2 comments on your post
1) The "doghouse"...IMO a very overused and misused term. Let's take Yvon as an example. Last year he was benched for a considerable number of games. He, was an out of control player, prone to commit silly fouls, draw tecnicals and foul out of games. As good as he was, he did hurt the team on several occassions.
So Yvon was benched or put "in the dog house" as you would say. Now my question is, did this help make Yvon the outstanding player he is this year? He is definitely more in control on the court and I would argue a much better player...our best.
So I ask you was last year's discipline ( "doghouse") a good coaching move or not? The answer in Yvon's case is obvious. Why do some see benching or "in the dog house" a bad thing? And how about Jeron Belin. Taken out of the starting lineup, perhaps got the message and became Tourney MVP. Not saying JD or any coach is a genius at this "doghouse"/benching thing but it would be hard to argue that's it's been a negative for both JD and St. Peter's.
Bottom line, benching a player for a prolonged time is often a positive thing and good coaching move as in the case of Yvon and Jeron.
2) I've strongly disagreed with you before on our MAAC Championship run but let me remind you again. Preseason we were ranked by MAAC Coaches ahead of Iona and picked #1 by our own Coach. All proved correct. True we finished 4th as many continue to point out but except for the one of the worst calls (a foul on Ryan Bacon on what was clearly a clean block) we finish 3rd. We did that playing with an injured team (Wesley and Ryan) for most of the year. Not bad!
True, there were really 3 teams capable of winning the Conference Championship and whoever won had to function on all cylinders and have outstanding coaching. We won and in no way do I consider it lucky. We led Iona from beginning to end, never trailed or made a last minute lucky shot to win the game.
Try this exercise...take the first seven players from Iona and the first seven from SP. Who would you pick from that combined team? Certainly, Machado and Glover but who would you pick from Iona over Belin, Bacon, Wesley, Nick, Conley, Samuels and Raymond. Certainly there could be an argument here and there but our players would dominate that combined team.
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Post by oldtimer1 on Jan 28, 2013 16:49:53 GMT -5
monty...you are a new poster and I hope you continue to post. Many of you points are valid but you just criticized our current point guard who has the following stats.
Assists to Turnovers - 101-57
Assists per game 5.1
Rebounds per game 4.5
Blocks 17 (tied with Darius and Yvon)
Where do you get a 6'2" point guard who plays defense, handles, scores enough, rebounds and takes care of the ball ?
Do not want to compare Blaise with Jasper, Nick or even for oldtimers Harry Laurie or later Tony Holm but those stats match up well against any of the above and on a pretty bad team. "Can't pass, or protect the ball", I think not. I've been to all home games and have a hard time remembering if anyone took theball away from Blaise, off the dribble or in the backcourt. Poor passes yes, but so do all point guards.
PS As Cindy pointed out, wish he could make foul shots (.493)
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Post by loyal on Jan 28, 2013 22:18:55 GMT -5
"Doghouse", in my view, is the antithises of finding away to motivate players to play hard and improve. Prescott, Fergie, Jackson, Conley, IMO, are examples of players who have underachieved at the MAAC level. A good manager, as you well know, finds a way to connect with subordinates and motivates them to flourish. JD has a spotty record, in that regard, IMO. For every Yvon and Jeron there are 3x more examples of players who have woefully underachieved.
Regarding March 7 , 2011..........Iona was a 9 point favorite. Was SPU the better team? Very doubtful. That MAAC Title game was probably my most favorite spectator sports event....or at least way up there.....but beating the Stags and Gaels that weekend as 7.5 and 9 point underdogs was a minor miracle, IMO. Mathematical odds were about 25-1, if my SPU degree is worth salt.
Having said that........you and I both want Dominique, Welton and Wyche to represent a big upgrade over our current talent level. Let's agree to that!
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Post by oldtimer1 on Jan 28, 2013 23:36:23 GMT -5
loyal, I really hate going back and forth with you because I know you are a great SP fan and want us to win as much as anyone. Yet here goes: 1) Regarding our Championship, sometimes the bookies handicap correctly, sometimes they do not. Can think of numerous examples, Alabama over ND, Colts 17 over the Jets and on and on and on. Lines are usually made on past performance and as I pointed out we played without two of our key players most of the year. Your SPU education is worth it's salt but using the oddsmakers lines to prove your point is Think the MAAC Coaches who picked us to finish ahead of Iona (when healthy) might have thought that we were the better team. As posted, I thought anyone of 3 teams were good enough to win but we did. Hitting the Tournament hot at the right time, definitely....but not lucky! By the way, you didn't answer how you would rank Iona players against ours #1-7. As stated there can be legitimate debate but I submit that after Machado (who never performed well in a big game) and Glover, we had most of the better players. Our 7 man rotation was much better than theirs. Beating Iona was no fluke once we were healthy. 2) Your take on the "doghouse"and the responsibility of a coach amazes me. Is JD is now responsible for Conley's poor season??? If so do you also credit JD for Darius' two ALL-MAAC seasons? Regarding Prescott and Jackson. How would you have JD "motivate" them to be better players? They just weren't! Why not blame their previous coaches as well while we are at it. And weren't you the one, after watching Fergie's Junior College video who posted that he didn't look that good to you...again Dunne's fault? What do you mean by underachieved? Loyal, YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS, either we are not recruiting talent or we are and Dunne is responsible for those wonderful recruits who are underchieving. Again, I blame lack of talent, not motivation or coaching. Let's be honest. We at Saint Peter's have always had difficulty recruiting top tier players. Many of our great players did not choose us first but transferred back when things didn't work out elsewhere. We never had the history of players that Manhattan, Iona, Seton Hall, St'. John's or any of the locals had. We were only better than the Wagner's and LIU. Also remember that LIU also had a very good run, for years, as the #1 small college team in the country along with Evansville. Pains me to say the above as I always root for my school but reality is reality. Have posted many, many times that SP is a very difficult place to recruit for with a difficult product to sell. Those of us who Coach here know that. And yes, I agree that a Coach is also part of that product. No doubt, the record stinks but whatever Dunne's shortcomings (real or imagined), IMO he's our best shot at success. Can't be plainer than that. Finally, I assume from your last sentence that you approve of our incoming recruiting class.
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Post by loyal on Jan 29, 2013 10:08:51 GMT -5
OT, yes, I am optomistic Dominique (based on friends first hand report), Wyche (seen him play) and Welton (playing against very good competition) have a good chance to perform at a much higher level than our past 5 years recruits. Fields (eh) should at least upgrade our rotation and Sellars I know little about, other than his stats are lower since he moved up in class (transferred to play better comp). Our JC designated shooter is not shooting well.....worried there. Since our frosh will take time to adjust to D 1, we'll need to land a starter who can score from the next two ships. Won't be easy in the normally barren spring signing period. In summary, I just hope the next three years yield a winning percentage over .550 and we leave the .300 level of achievement in the rear view mirror. I suspect you do, too, so we share that sentiment. :-)
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Post by oldtimer1 on Jan 29, 2013 10:54:52 GMT -5
At last we agree and maybe that's a good sign! One area I know we agree is the need for another outside shooter. None in sight, so far. Hope Wyche, with the 3's he's making can provide some of that, even at point. Chazz also has the potential to step up. Seems gun shy but does have the ability to knock down the three.
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Post by jajk on Jan 29, 2013 13:11:05 GMT -5
Seems gunshy ? The question is why . Chris B got hot shooting threes in a game when he was relaxed doing it . ' our three pointer shooter is allowed to shoot threes , the others should not . It is not their game . Quote by ESPN announcer during one of our games from whom ? What chance do have to recruit shooters or to develop shooters when you so value every possession . Shooters must shoot .
Sorry , but I just don't buy how our players are being thrown overboard here for the MAAC regular season record this season and last . The differential in talent from other MAAC schools is not nearly wide enough to merit this . But if you don't throw the players overboard what else could be at blame ? I could not disagree more that coaching doesn't matter significantly in college basketball . I don't buy at all that these kids have thrown in the towel even though the actions of their coach last game might indeed justify it .
Quote ' We talked about trying pressure in second half but we have to do it conservatively . It is not our players game . ' End of paraphased quote . We have Yvon and Chris B and Chazz who I'll put out there with any in the MAAC to apply it "aggressively " if put in the right position to do it . Players or their talent level can't be blamed for this lack of trying something different .
When Hanburger threw Chris B under the bus after he had outstanding game , do you really think that he was going out on his own ? How do you recruit and develop players with the attitude and philosophy of this staff ?
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Post by oldtimer1 on Jan 29, 2013 15:36:24 GMT -5
jajk...you once made a great post right after our MAAC Championship victory. When everyone was praising John Dunne for a "genius" coaching job you reminded everyone that it was the players who won it on the court. I agreed wholeheartedly...good coaching, excellent performance on the court. Now, in almost every post, you seemingly have turned 180 degrees. It's now the all the coaches fault. I'd just urge you to be as balanced as you were several years ago.
Regarding your first paragraph, if I read you correctly, that Chris be is reluctant to shoot because of our coach and staff. Nothing can be further from the truth. In a conversation I had with JD several games ago he voiced the opinion, and I'll paraphrase ' Chris makes those in practice, wish he would have the confidence to do it in a game". Spoken with Chris on several occassions. I'll say no more except that, like you, I really like his game.
I also agree with you that our kids have not thrown in the towel. It's normal to get dejected after another loss but I can tell you that in both the Iona and Fairfield games the team played hard. At Iona cut a 13 point defecit to 2 in the second half...no quit there. Same effort against Fairfield. Give BOTH the coach and players credit.
Think we should beat Marist...let's see
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Post by loyal on Jan 29, 2013 16:00:13 GMT -5
Not to put words in his mouth, but let me speculate..................a few good reasons JAJK may have "turned" since March 7, 2011:
1) 4-14 2) 1-9 3) Failure to recruit after winning the MAAC Title. We went from "people calling us" to "Gaetano Spera" in a flash. 4) Cumulative win percentage around 30%. 5) Embarrassing incident with Fergie (which I did not witness) Sunday. 6) Conley regression. Prescott regression. Recruiting Fergie and Jackson.
I was not there live either time, but did not think we had a maximum level effort at Marist, home to Fairfield, home to Manhattan. Stags mailed that game in Sunday and kept us easily at bay. Marist and Jasper games an embarrassment. I am just not seeing games or effort levels worthy of doling out any form of credit.
OT, I admire your SPU support and respect your opinions, but we are watching the same games and coming away with very different conclusions. Guess that is what makes the world go round!
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Post by oldtimer1 on Jan 29, 2013 17:36:07 GMT -5
Loyal, here we go again!
I have no problem with anyone criticizing JD's record or as our coach. That's what fans are all about but some of what I read it amazing.
1) Yes, loyal we have different opinions but let's look at the record. Before the season you questioned Blaise, especially as a ball handler and distributor. I reassured you that he was a good player. Then when he stated off "hot" you wanted to make him President. Fast forward several games in which he (and the team ) played poorly you titled a post Ffrench Falloff. Took you to task based on a few games. Now he's playing well and you've reversed you opinion again..just too much! Check his Season stats posted above, who was right? you or I
Next take, Chris Burke. You posted that he couldn't shoot or even make a layup. Remember? You were wrong again! Yes loyal we certainly see things differently.
2) Next you talk about Conley and Prescott's regression and blame our coach. Did it ever dawn on you that Prescott was never that good! Check out his performances at St. Joe's. If we didn't have Desi he might well be starting and playing very medicore.
As for Darius, isn't it convenient to blame the Coach and not the player? Again, you are not even consistent...blame the coach but not credit the coach for Darius' previous two years. As for me, it's all about Darius, not the coach. What layups and putbacks did John Dunne miss for Darius this year. I love Darius and his effort but he is struggling, don't blame the coach.
Now onto Ferguson and Jackson. Do you consider Jackson to have regressed? What about his performance at Rutgers and KS? Were the other coaches also at fault? The only legitimate question you ask (and again phrased as a criticism) is why take either player in the first place? Aside from the fact that hindsight is always correct, you DO NOT KNOW, the circumstances under which JD recruited either one. Was there anyone better, was available AND wanted to come here? Doubt it
3) Effort vs Performance. Not every team comes to play every night but if you are blaming the coach and staff you are better off blaming them for performance not effort. Marist was the only game I did not witness live but I can tell you that I saw no let down in intesity in Manhattan and Fairfield and definitely not in intensity against Iona. We lost due to performance not effort or intensity. Will it continue...I hope so.
4) Getting annoid with this Hamburger and Furguson stuff. Yes, I saw the incident and Figgy described it perfectly. I too thought it inappropriate. However, as figgy pointed out he knew nothing of the background . I respect that. Yet it seems that you and jajk are jumping on the bandwagon as if it supports some other points you want to make One incident, I repeat one incident.. Remember the NCAA moment when Nick threw his arms around JD with tears in both of their eyes...guess he "loved" his coach. How quickly we forget!!!
4) One final word on recruiting and I've posted it many times. Not as an excuse but reality. Maybe there is someone out there who can recruit top tier players to SP better than JD and staff. Certainly, if Jd's record contiunes as such he will be let go and someone else named. But all this bull about either not recognizing talent or recruiting such just makes me shake my head.
Just to reveal something that may give you insight. Both Rossiter and OD hailed from my home community, OD from my high school and know RR's father pretty well. Even played some ball with him years ago.In fact, one of my golfers who graduated last year played with RR in high school and remains one of his closest friends. OD's coach is also a personal friend of mine and will probably attend the Siena game in February. I approached both, on my own, about either player considering SP. NOT EVEN A CHANCE! Not style of play, not the coach or any of those other excuses posted here. I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions as to why.
Loyal, I'm not a negative person as evidenced by both my recruits and team performance. I believe that SP still offers a good education, nearness to NYC and perhaps even more important networking possibilities for future employment. I try sell all that plus my team, schedule and hopefully myself. Like the basketball staff I try very hard. Maybe that's why I support them. I know how hard they work to develop a winner. No coach is perfect but I think we have a pretty good one and not really deserving of all this second guessing. Support the Coach, for now, and when his contract expires let the AD make a decision when his contract expires.
Jajk, even in bad times, gives his total support to our players. I do the same for both coach and players. Criticism is fine but some of what is posted here is pure second guessing. Yes, a coach bears final responsibility and I'm certain that our performances this year bother JD. No doubt finds much fault in himself. That's the type of guy he is.
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Post by jajk on Jan 29, 2013 18:05:38 GMT -5
I could not agree more Loyal , that that's what makes the world go around . We are all fans ( no more and no less ) and we all want what's best for the program that we root for . One of the things the Jesuits taught me and stood up so well against the best of the Ivy Leaguers and Wharton and Chicago School of Business etc. Wall Streeters all those years was that there was always two sides of the story - and get ready to win the debate no matter which side your on . For me , that is not a credit to this city kid but to the greatest teachers in the world - the Jesuits of the Fifties and Sixties in all their high schools and colleges .
But I digress . Each poster here obviously sees our conference play last season and this season a little differently . A few us get to see most or many of the games in person - obviously the best vantage point and a credit to those posters as well . I unfortunately am no longer one of those . But I do watch every game available on stream and one helluva a lot of other MAAC games as I can .
Some of us get to see practices . Some of us get to talk to coaches . Not this poster . But others do get to hear everything that the coaches say in interviews on the air .
Our views also differ as to what is most important for a program that we root for . One opinion on this score seems not better than another - just different . But they will lead us to different assessments about why this team has fallen off the cliff in terms of MAAC play last season and this .
Some here had a much better vantage point for John's behavior on the sidelines Sunday . Some are much more inside on the relationship of the staff and the players . But from my vantage point and from what is important to me , John' s behavior and demeanor in that game Sunday was sad for a St. Peter's fan to watch . I would think that any player on our team was praying for half time so they did not have to play defense in front of John's constanting ranting and being out on the court when they are playing defense . For me , every one of our players are a helluva lot stronger people than this poster for staying with it as well as they do in the face of being berated , being buried for one mistake , for not stepping on the court for six or eight or ten straight games . I see the faces of Yvon and Darius and Blaise and virtually all of the others in the current slide and I see players that still want to win as much as a player can .
Some coaches coach the way John did Sunday and win . I don't root for their teams and could care little for whether their teams lose or win . But that is just from my vantage point and from what is important to me . I try to post my opinions and let others post theirs from their perspective and from what is important to them .
And obviously all of these problems are not staff caused but two last things .
From my perspective of not seeing one game in person this season sadly and from being as far from an insider or coach as possible , but from the perspective of watching a helluva lot of MAAC games involving my beloved Peacocks or not , there is not close to the disparity of talent to start justifying our conference record the last two seasons . Following the logic of the Jesuits from my time , significant share of the blame must be put on the staff . My opinion . Others will bele=ieve differently .
Lastly , a poster here gave a lot of the credit to JD for Yvon's growth as a player and a person . My thought on this is that I wish John's growth as a coach and person had been nearly as good over this time period . But anything is possible . And he will be our coach a long time so a fan has to remain hopeful . But as much as I always closely follow our recruits and other future players , it is JDs future that concerns me much more than the ability of Quadir , Dominque , Trevis , Dominque etc .
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Post by oldtimer1 on Jan 29, 2013 20:14:43 GMT -5
jajk...you try to take the high road and I applaud you for that but unfortunately some of your sniping does come through.
1) In your last paragraph you refer to "a poster here" , obviously me, gave a lot of credit to JD for helping Yvon as a player and person. That straw man you created ( the good Jesuits taught me to recognize that) had nothing to do with what I said or implied. Loyal, was going off about how players have regressed under JD, always using the word "doghouse". I then used Yvon and Jeron as examples as players who were indeed hurting the team and were benched NOT Doghouse. Those were not vindictive moves, it was what a coach, any coach should do. Yvon, to cite one example, was often out of control fouling in unnecessary instances, fouling out and drawing technical fouls. He was hurting the team and his own game. I DO NOT give JD "a lot of credit for Yvon's growth as a player and a person". I give them both credit. Same with Jeron Belin. That's what a good coach does and that how a player should react. Both should be given credit.
2) Before that you say that when a team's record is this bad, a significant blame must go to coach and staff. I AGREE! Never said anything different...read my posts. So there you go again setting up a straw man to knock down. Losing is a team thing and that includes both coaches and players. JD has not found the answers to date , Darius keeps missing chippies, our foul shooting is among the worst in the country...ALL bear responsibility.
3) I also object to you put down comment that you hope John grows as a coach and a person. As far as his coaching ability, any criticism is fine. Comes with the territory. But as a person?? What hubris, you don't even know John and you're evaluating him as a person? Not afraid to say that , that stinks. I used the example of Nick and John at the NCAA's. Yes, I too was suprised at JD's outburst Sunday but you are now using it as a badge of courage to validate the points you are trying to make.
FYI, I am not joined at the hip with the basketball team. I have my own team to coach, they have their's. I have very little personal contact and want it that way. It's their team. I do, however, respect what I see (and not so with every coach I know).
You also gave Hamburger an unnecessary beating with your "under the bus" comment. Knowing Bruce a bit (he is a laid back type of person) I presume you again over exaggerated. I did not hear the comment that Bruce made but I need to remind you that several games earlier Bruce made very strong and positive comments about Chris. Knocking sombody intensely is not Bruce's style.
One last thought and I think I've posted this before. Rarely talk to JD but once in a while. Had an impromtu casual chat after one of our losses primarily due to our foul shooting woes. John was upset that we had lost a few games due to foul shooting. However, he followed with a direct comment that he couldn't blame his players for that. He knew that they were trying. Could have easily bad mouthed the guys. Now that jajk is class and not the person you describe.
All the above has nothing to do with criticism of his coaching and recruiting. As you say, you have your opinion, I have mine. Just think you are going way over the top with some of that other stuff. Most of your basketball related posts are fun to read and whether I disagree or not are insightful, but this personal stuff has to go. Don't worry about JD's future, it's he that has to worry about that and perform. Think he knows that.
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