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Iona
Jan 26, 2013 17:28:27 GMT -5
Post by peacockblue on Jan 26, 2013 17:28:27 GMT -5
Not to try to take away the few positives that everyone has pointed out about last nights game, but I think it should be pointed out that the two games against Iona are the only two conference games in which we have scored more than 60 points. So while we didn't "look" as bad last night, we still lost by 19 points which matches our worst loss of the year.
OT, I agree that Burke needs to be the player you see potential from in practice and showed last night. Unfortunately, watching a team like Iona, they have 3-4 players in that same mold of 6'4 that play the wing and can shoot. I certainly think he can be a starter for us, but he still has a long way to go to prove he can be a "star".
While I admit that I haven't seen any of our recruits play and rely on fellow posters for updates, I have to think it will be hard to replace our starting point guard, small forward, and center based on recent recruiting years. Very rarely (if ever) under JD have we had freshmen come in under JD and play like starting caliber players, especially considering the returning cast they will be surrounded by.
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Iona
Jan 26, 2013 17:41:49 GMT -5
Post by cindycrawford on Jan 26, 2013 17:41:49 GMT -5
Very rarely (if ever) under JD have we had freshmen come in under JD and play like starting caliber players, Does the name Wesley Jenkins ring a bell ?
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Iona
Jan 26, 2013 18:21:15 GMT -5
Post by oldtimer1 on Jan 26, 2013 18:21:15 GMT -5
peacockblue...think we are mostly in agreement re: Chris Burke and especially in agreement with regard to next years team, at least this point in the recruiting process. We have at least 3 positions to replace with newbees...not an easy task, no matter how good our recruits look right now.
Regarding Chris Burke let me restate my take. First, when I use the word potential regarding Chris I am talking ALL MAAC potential, not general "potential" such as Elias, Dominique, Welton or Wyche. Right now, Chris is a very, very good player not someone who has the "potential" to be good. He already is starter good.
Check Iona's roster. They do not have 3/4 players anywhere near Chris Burke at his positions. They have but ONE, Sean Armand. Sean is a an ALL MAAC level player right now and based on his consistent performance better than Chris. Just one caveat on that, Chris cannot shoot like Armand but does several other things better. Would love to see how Chris would have performed on a run and gun team like Iona.
Now that I've pumped Chris, justifiably so, let me repeat my concern. Chris, for whatever reason, has/had the mindset of a role player not a star. He needs to change that thinking and I don't know if he can or will. The last few games he's beginning to show some of that mindset but as posted earlier the jury is still out.
Think the point you made( I agree) a while ago is conistency. Can't have a game like last night every night but to be one of our keys next year Chris needs to average 10-15 pts. per game, 6-8 rebounds while continuing his defense, ball handling, shot blocking., steals and not being turnover prone...the so called intangibles.
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Iona
Jan 26, 2013 20:58:34 GMT -5
Post by peacockblue on Jan 26, 2013 20:58:34 GMT -5
Yes, so you can remove the "(if ever)" from that and just go with "very rarely," since it's been six years. Conley was also All-Rookie team if my memory is correct, but he was also not asked to do as much as we will ask our newbies next year to do. My point is that with the talent coming back, we need one, if not two of the freshmen to be immediate scorers/shooters and that has been rare for us (and many other mid-major teams for that matter). Most of our "top" recruits in the past fit the mold of Patterson- high upside but a year or so away.
If you are saying they do not have players that can put up 18pts and 10 rebounds then I agree with you. But Burke is averaging 5 points and 4 rebounds this year. In conference games (he's played significant minutes in all of them), he's averaging 8 points and just over 5 rebs.
In addition to Armand (who is averaging 5 rebs as well by the way), I think Tre Bowman (who hit a few big threes to put the game away last night) and the transfer from Toledo, Curtis Dennis, who saw some minutes last night would both be starters on SP and are a similar build to Burke.
As to your last comment, I too would love to see how Burke would fit in a system like Iona's. I would say the same thing about Ferguson as well.
Burke's stats in the last five games before last night were Marist (0pts, 5reb), Rider (11pts, 2reb), Siena (2pts, 2reb), Niagara (17pts, 6reb), and Loyola (5pts, 9reb). That averages out to 7pts and under 5 rebs...those are the numbers of a "very, very good player"?
I completely agree Burke needs to average double digits next year. But seeing 25+ minutes in the last two months, he has only managed to score double figures in three games this year on a team desperate for a scorer.
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Iona
Jan 26, 2013 23:31:38 GMT -5
Post by oldtimer1 on Jan 26, 2013 23:31:38 GMT -5
peacockblue..while I think we disagree with each other only in degree I need to defend Chris Burke as a "very, very good player".
First, in mentioning that both Tre Bowman and Curtis Dennis would be starters on our team...disagree strongly on Dennis and have mixed feelings on Bowman. Curtis Dennis stats are horrible (shooting .355 overall, .310 from the three and over 1 rebound per game). Bowman is a different story. An outstanding shooter who can shoot with anyone. Outside of that, however, brings little else to the table. Burke can do everything else better. Yet on a team that needs shooters I agree that Bowman would start at #3 shifting Burke to #4. If both were on a team with outstanding scorers (inside and out) I'd take Burke.
You stats on Chris (7pts, 5 rebounds) in Conference games do require an asterisk. SP averagers 57 points per game in Conference play, Iona well over 80 points per game. Think you would agree that his numbers would approach 10-12 pts. and 7 -8 rebounds on a higher scoring team. As I posted, Chris just simply does not take enough shots to average double digits. Yet, anyone who watches him play, including his teammates and coaches, recognizes what he brings to the table. Guess he made Iona's announcer, Ed Ingles, a fan also.
Due to injury last year Chris, who is now playing 30 minutes plus per game, has only started 6/19 games averaging 21 minutes per game. He is our #1 percentage shooter at .487 overall and a decent .387 from the three. Also our second leading rebounder etc. etc.
As you probably noticed the term "intangibles" (not by you) drives me crazy. Being a smart player, blocking shots, hustle, help bringing the ball up under pressure, good passer etc. is part of what one brings to the table. Those are real assets! Chris does all those things well.
The point I keep making is that I don't think Chris knows how good he can really be. I also gave caution in that I don't know if he will get to that next level. Certainly it's not his talent that is holding him back. Having games like Iona just gives a glimpse of what could be but taking 9 or so shots per night does not a scorer make. I just enjoy watching the kid play...IMO a very, very good player.
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Iona
Jan 27, 2013 8:57:25 GMT -5
Post by peacockblue on Jan 27, 2013 8:57:25 GMT -5
Fair enough points, OT. My original observation on Iona after Friday's game was not meant as a knock on Burke, but instead simply saying they had a lot of players in the mold of Burke- athletic 6'4-6'6 players that could play the wing, shoot, handle, etc. (I haven't seen them enough this year to know why Curtis Dennis is struggling, but if you look at his stats at Toledo, he was putting up similar numbers to Burke...perhaps he plays too much defense for Cluess's liking ;D) I think unfortunately for Burke, he was forced to play the 4 most of last year and now again this year because of need and the makeup of the roster. I think if we find two guys to hold down the majority of minutes at the 4 and 5 (which we haven't had since Bacon/Conley) and Chris is allowed to play the 3, he could have a chance to show the consistency we all hope for.
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Iona
Jan 27, 2013 9:21:09 GMT -5
Post by oldtimer1 on Jan 27, 2013 9:21:09 GMT -5
peacockblue...as stated earlier, I think we agree much more than we disagree. I especially agree with your initial early take on next years team. Given Desi and Burke we need to have 3 newbees step up right away...something very difficult to accomplish no matter how good Dominique, Welton and Wyche look today. Think Chazz and Elias are also keys.
I've seen both Dominique and Fields play. My opinion is that Dominique will help big time. My only concern is will be his ability to blend into a team concept...tends to play a bit out of control. Regarding Fields, he is a tough kid. Will run through a brick wall if necessary. Although not especially quick, he can drive to the hoop. On the negative side I don't see him as a shooter or offensive threat. Just my initial take on both. Re: Chazz, just needs to develop. Defensively, every bit as good as Yvon and that's high praise indeed.
Re: Chris Burke, couldn't play the #3 for us this year because of Yvon. Next year, I think that's where he'll play. Whether he becomes a main guy or just another role player is really up to him. He has all the tools. Desi also has to advance, especially to become a more consistent shooter and to improve his assist/turnover ratio. It's not very good.
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Iona
Jan 27, 2013 9:23:08 GMT -5
Post by spcfan on Jan 27, 2013 9:23:08 GMT -5
Very good point Peacock Blue. Couldn't agree more. To be a top level player Chris needs to play the wing not the four where his ability to drive off the perimeter is severely hampered as well as being called on to always guard a bigger stronger player at the 4.
I too really like his overall game and agree with Oldtimer on all the intangibles he brings but the question is will we have a tandem like Bacon,Conley again.When we won it all those two plus Steve Samuels (a very similar player to Burke but with better shot) comprised our front line.
Will Welton and Dominique give us that tandem or do we revert to Burke at the 4 as Dunne has had to do the last two years guaranteeing another PIG finish.
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